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Post by Crippled Munchkin on Aug 26, 2005 19:36:55 GMT -5
ok, i'm just going to leave a final word. God's hardened your heart beyond my debate skills. He may be working that to a greater purpose. God works in mysterious ways. questioning one's faith, whether it be agnostic, buddhism, christianity etc., is in human nature. Human nature, as we can see in the world today, is not perfect. life is one phase in eternity. it's the choosing phase, either choose God or choose against him. I pray God works in your life and brings you to him. He'd be very happy. He loves you, me, and all scum of the earth, for him or not. He works in mysterious ways and I hope you figure that out some day.
Crippled Munchkin
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Post by matthew on Aug 26, 2005 19:40:28 GMT -5
I went through a questioning stage a year or so back. I took the bible verse "Test Everything" to the extreme, hehe.
I've never had a religious upbringing. I wasn't culturally indoctrinated to believe in God, and never really gave God much time or thought when I was growing up.
I did screw up my life pretty badly however, and when I cried out to God (one that I didn't know existed) he answered my prayer, and revealed himself to me. That's the only way you can know God exists, through revelation. He needs to transform your heart.
A couple of years ago all this changed and I stopped believing. i would only look at the evidence, and I totally mistrusted people who claimed they knew God. I thought I was being impartial and being honest with the facts, but I didn't realise that I had hardened my heart. I had forgotton that the only reason I believed was not because of my own knowledge, but because God gave me the ability to believe. Once you begin to believe (or even just except that there might be a possibility that God is real and Jesus died for us), God will begin to work on your heart.
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Post by Guy on Aug 26, 2005 20:44:09 GMT -5
Muhad, I am agnostic.
I do not believe god exists, but I do hold out for the possibility that he may.
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Post by matthew on Aug 26, 2005 21:14:09 GMT -5
Yeah, i get what you are saying, Guy. I guess we are on opposite end of the same spectrum of belief and unbelief. There is no 'path of knowledge' in Christianity. The way to God is by faith, and so for an agnostic this poses a problem.
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Post by Guy on Aug 26, 2005 23:12:53 GMT -5
Well, just to say. I'm sure you all have your reasons for your faith and no one can be said right or wrong at this point.
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Post by James on Aug 28, 2005 12:37:31 GMT -5
Correct no one knows. Its your choice so really I don't think this thread should exist.
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Post by Gwen on Aug 28, 2005 19:55:15 GMT -5
nobody likes having their faith questioned the majority of people who follow a certain creed are quite happy to potter along in their lives with the faith acting as a kind of supporting shadow, we find strength in it when we are weak, we rejoice in it when we are happy, we have it to explain the things the cold cruel world of science cannot explain.
Guy has a point though, (some one may have already answered this, i maybe just blind) what would happen to me when i die if the christian god turned out to be the right one? I'm a good person, i give to charity, do kind things to help neighbours/family etc, but i neither believe in, nor worship your god...would i go to hell? or purgatory, surely if you have no faith in something, it holds no power over you??
~Niniane - the confused~ xxxx
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Post by matthew on Aug 30, 2005 0:35:53 GMT -5
It's interesting what you say about faith being like a "supporting shadow", Gwen, but that's not how it's supposed to be. The way you've portrayed faith is more self-centered that centered on God. "We find strength when we are weak, we rejoice when we are happy". The basis of our faith is not, or should not be, our feelings, but rather upon God, and trusting him no matter what. Otherwise, the circumstances of your life are going to hold "power over you", regardless of what you believe. I want to be set free from that. Like in psalm 23; "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil for you are with me." That's what faith is: trusting God. That's what Jesus taught.
"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."In order to have a relationship with God you kinda need to know who he is, and like any relationship, it works both ways. Sure, God wants you to be good, but more importantly he wants you to get to know him. And act's of goodness, don't necessarily reveal what is in a person's heart. The heart is a complex thing, more complex than religious doctrines, even ;D, But God , I believe, looks at the heart first, and he reads it perfectly. That's what he'll be looking at when you die "if the Christian god turned out to be the right one" . But like I said, and as Jesus taught "True worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshippers the Father seeks." And it is only through Jesus that this has been made possible.
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Post by Gwen on Aug 31, 2005 0:36:43 GMT -5
i'm sorry Matt, i wasn't talking about christianity as such, more about my faith, my mother is my mother, she is my supporting shadow i do find strength in her when i am weak, i indeed rejoice in her entirity when i'm happy, i have the mystery that is her to explain the things the cold cruel world of science cannot explain...selfish, maybe, but i am human, i am selfish, i work hard for personal comfort... i honestly cant think of any more to say, i'm far too exhausted to try & defend myself, i was trying to be nice when i generalised that everyones faith was their own 'supporting shadow' i was trying to defend faith generally, i certainly didn't mean to insult anyone; if you think i've got it all wrong fair do's, you obviously have given this more thought than me
~Gwen~
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Post by matthew on Aug 31, 2005 0:43:40 GMT -5
i'm sorry Matt, i wasn't talking about christianity as such, more about my faith, my mother is my mother, she is my supporting shadow i do find strength in her when i am weak, i indeed rejoice in her entirity when i'm happy, i have the mystery that is her to explain the things the cold cruel world of science cannot explain...selfish, maybe, but i am human, i am selfish, i work hard for personal comfort... i honestly cant think of any more to say, i'm far too exhausted to try & defend myself, i was trying to be nice when i generalised that everyones faith was their own 'supporting shadow' i was trying to defend faith generally, i certainly didn't mean to insult anyone; if you think i've got it all wrong fair do's, you obviously have given this more thought than me ~Gwen~ sorry Gwen. But you haven't insulted me, or anyone else. and you are very nice did I come across harsh? I wanted to answer your question about hell and stuff and it seemed to tie together.
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Post by wraith89 on Aug 31, 2005 11:07:14 GMT -5
hey wait a second. what do you mean God isn't real? God sure is real. it's been proven in many ways I cannot explain!
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Post by Gwen on Aug 31, 2005 20:27:53 GMT -5
no matt, you didn't come across harsh, don't worry about it; i was wondering though, would your god smite me (or other non-christians...Guy, avenger, the Dalai Lama) because we don't believe in him? is that ignorance on our part? or innocence? He did it in the old testement, he was all about the smiting; i always felt sorry for the egyptians, yeah, they were warned, but look at it from their point of view, why would they risk the wrath of their gods to bow down before this god they didn't know existed? Later on in the bible though, jesus was all about forgiveness, looking at it from my point of view it all confuses. I'm sure Guy is a good person, i would consider myself a good person, & the Dalai Lama is one of the best people living in the world today. Most if not every one of the world's religions uphold a creed of goodness of helping others etc etc, ive often been amused by the term of Christan Charity, i would see such behaviour as Common Decency. The Good Samaritan wasn't a Christian but he stopped & helped a random stranger who'd been hurt; i find it very hard to believe that anyone would just walk by if they saw someone in need of help whether they're Jew, Christian, Buddist or Pagan; it's common decency. So when we die & (for arguements sake) it's the Christian God who waits for us on the other side, would we be dealing with the smiting God of the OT who would chuck us to hell for 'having other gods before him' ? that hardly seems fair any thoughts?
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Post by Michael on Aug 31, 2005 22:13:18 GMT -5
Gwen, this may answer your question but if not maybe M@ can answer it.
As you had mentioned God was into smiting in the OT. But think of this way with the Egyptians. The Jews/Hebrews were God's Chosen People. Abraham, the father of the nation of Israel, was considered to be God's best friend, and so the nation of Israel became God's people. If you were God (which none of us can be but just to be in another being's shoes and all that jazz) wouldn't you do whatever possible to get your people out of a bondage that went on for generations? God warned Pharoah by sending seven signs or plaques as they are sometimes called. If God didn't show himself real in the earlier, less fatal, plaques then He, like we probably would've done, given another warning but a firmer one. I believe that there were Egyptians that believe God was the true God after his warnings. But because of Pharaoh's ignorance and pride God sent Egypt one last and fatal sign. The death angel. He even told those who believed in him or the Hebrew God (for the Egyptians) to put lamb's blood on the door posts.
There were other occasions in the OT when God has smited someone, but not before a warning. When God saw the person, or people's, heart and knew they wouldn't listen, that was when he smote them.
But in the NT God creates a new covenant with everyone. His son was the new covenant. His life, death, and ressurection. God is still the same as he was in the OT but He is showing Himself to be a more loving God than he may have in the OT by sending His son.
For me, because of the morals I have been taught and raised with, whether or not I am Christian, I would help someone in need. Anyone can do that though. But God can't allow every good deed person into heaven. It's not about good deeds. It's about God. The Bible says that Jesus is <i>the</i> way, <i>the</i> truth, and <i>the</i> life. No one can go to the Father but by Him. And the only way by doing that is by acknowledging God as the one and only true God, accepting Christ's forgiveness, and repenting of your sins.
To those of you one OVgfx. I do not mean to sound like a preacher when I post this.... but this is my responce to Gwen's question. \
Oh, and I do believe that it is fair because he warns us by showing us the things He did in the past to those who had hardened their hearts to him and he shows us what will happen in the future. He gives us every chance to know him and every chance to know why we should. It is just us who either allow Him to show us or shove him off. If anyone goes to hell, it is because of them wanting to do things their way and not depending on God.
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Post by Michael on Aug 31, 2005 22:14:43 GMT -5
Bah.... stupid codes and all... I meant this: The Bible says that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.
lol...
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Post by wraith89 its me on Sept 2, 2005 21:11:45 GMT -5
This is a little off topic but the admin here (originally called dudleythoth, then Matthew, then M@hu, now I don't know his name anymore)...should change that custom title God. It's quite offensive...for no one's God but God...
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Post by matthew on Sept 3, 2005 2:04:29 GMT -5
Just a tiny bit off topic, yeah. Sorry Wraith We need to come up with some different rank names. not in this thread though. I'll start a new thread sometime this weekend.
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Post by Someone on Sept 4, 2005 10:14:15 GMT -5
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Post by spiritman on Sept 11, 2005 20:44:36 GMT -5
You guys probably know this already but I just want to inform some ppl that
the human DNA is SO complex it will take a library with 5000books in it with 500 pages, with 10,000 words each 12 font w/ single spacing
I am not to sure on how many books but the rest of the info is correct. That is why scientists are giving up on "natural selection" and "evolution" for they have come to the fact that there must have been a higher intelligence to create such a complex system.
-P-
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Post by matthew on Sept 13, 2005 2:04:04 GMT -5
That's definitely worth thinking about Science doesn't explain away God, but rather reveals how truly complex everything is, pointing to an intelligent creator
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Post by guy on Sept 26, 2005 0:20:15 GMT -5
You guys probably know this already but I just want to inform some ppl that
the human DNA is SO complex it will take a library with 5000books in it with 500 pages, with 10,000 words each 12 font w/ single spacing
I am not to sure on how many books but the rest of the info is correct. That is why scientists are giving up on "natural selection" and "evolution" for they have come to the fact that there must have been a higher intelligence to create such a complex system.
-P- That's definately one way to look at it . . . the whole "yeah, I'm right." There is no fact at this point. Saying so is extremely egotistical. I can hold the exact same thing against you. If you didn't quite get he was saying, the molecule of human DNA is about a yard/meter long. There are some trillions of cells in your body that all contain this strand. You do the math. You're saying that DNA is too complex to have evolved naturally, so God created us. I can say that we evolved natually because there are too many unnecessary features that we have that never would have been added if we were created. Why would we have facial hair? Freckles? Why would our viens show through our skin? Why would melanin only develope if we've been in the sun too long and not just develope at a constant rate? Why does cancer develope? And on the natural vs. evolution subject. The bible was not written by god, it was written by people, mainly who had heard about stories. I doubt God would care if you believed all the stories in the bible since it's impossible for them to all be true. Branch out a little, even if you are religious, Adam and eve could very well be a made up story. Maybe god was guiding evolution. Anyways, I understand people who believe in religion. But, I still reserve the right to hate people who follow it blindly. It's like talking to someone who covers their ears and yells, "I can't hear you," over . . . and over then waits 'till you're done just to say they're right with no consideration for the other way.
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