the Da Vinci Code

[Gwen]

I was just wondering, does anyone think the 'theory' of the true holy grail covered in the book could be a possibility?
i realise the book is strictly fiction but it does contain an awful lot of fact. I can speak personally on this as i know that there's an awful lot of pagan symbology/mythology that was later crafted into christianity. As Robert Langdon pointed out in the book, Venus's pentacle became a symbol of 'devil worship' Triton's tridant became the devils pitchfork, horned gods such as Pan & Bahomet became 'the devil' , the triple goddess became the holy trinity & slowly, pagan worship was vilified/buried by the church.

The book goes on to suggest that the famous Christian Roman Emperor Constantine was merely backing the 'winning horse' by supporting christianity & (being a staunch pagan himself) was able to filter an awful lot of pagan symbology etc into the standardised christian dogma.
Phrases like 'the Light of the World' are taken straight from the pagan god Mithra who was a soldiers god & was worshipped some 300 years BC, the halos seen around saints/jesus's head are taken from the sun disks of ancient egypt, Mary (mother of god) incorperates the Triple Goddess throughout (Maiden, Mother, Widow) & the stereotyped image of god the father is scarily similar to Zeus.

It also speaks about the bible. Now, apparently, back around Constantines time, Christianity was clearly on the rise but this was some years after Jesus's death, apparently, there were an awful lot of gospels floating around written by Jesus's followers/admirers covering his inspirational 33 years on earth.
It was decided that instead of a mortal man, jesus should be seen as devine, so Constantine made sure that the gospels that described Jesus as mortal were not allowed into the 'final edit' as it were but were in fact, destroyed.
It has always bugged me that in the bible, Jesus goes from 12 to 33, whatever happened to the missing 21 years?

The Da Vinci Code suggests that through some of the surviving missing gospels (the Dead Sea Scrolls etc) that Jesus led a close to normal mortal life. It suggests that he married. Mary Magdalene in fact. Now, the bible describes her as a woman of loose morals, but this seems to have merely been an attempt to discredit her. Remember, Jesus was a Jew; there would have to have been something seriously wrong with him not to be married by the age of 30. Da Vinci certainly thought they were married as his portrait of the Last Supper clearly shows them as a pair...



According to the book then (& an awful lot of conspiricy theory) the Holy Grail is not some cup but the bloodlines/family tree of Jesus Christ. The grail was said to be 'the chalice that held the blood of jesus christ' forget 'chalice' as a physical cup but as (as is metaphored in goddess worship) a womb.
Mary was thought to be with child around the time of the crucifixion later fleeing to france. The danger she posed was simple...

The Da Vinci Code suggests that Mary Magdalene and Christ united to combine a powerful royal bloodline. Mary Magdalene was from the Tribe of Benjamin and Jesus from the House of David, and the evidence that Jesus had a royal bloodline is within the Sangreal (San Graal/ Holy Grail) Documents. Mary Magdalene posed a threat to the men of the church by not only having been "assigned the task of founding the Church, but she also had physical proof that the Church's newly proclaimed deity had spawned a mortal bloodline"

Now, even to me, the thought that there maybe some great great great great great X10000 grandchild of Jesus Christ running around somewhere today seems just a little too far fetched, but, bare in mind, there is not one mythical object that has been sought as much as the Grail. If it was a cup, then why not search for the crown of thorns, the three nails? Anyway, i was hoping to get an objective Christian perspective on the matter...
Any thoughts??

[matthew]

I doubt that the holy Grail Legend and Lore had it origins in Christianity. My guess is that it derives from some kind of mystery religion/s. The best evidence I can find is that the grail was a bowl rather than a cup, and such bowls were used in pagan sacraments.

There is a lot of symbolism that has was passed over from pre-existing religious beliefs into Christianity, i guess this is pretty much to be expected. i've never heard anyone make the claim that the Trinity was based on the triple goddess/s before.

Don't really know much about Constantine, but I guess his reasons for adopting Christianity were probably not spiritual, and probably a way for him to unify and manage the Roman empire.

I'd say it was unilkely that the Phrase 'the Light of the World' in a Christian context was lifted directly from Mithraism. Either way, there are no pre-chritian mithraic texts to prove or disprove it one way or the other, but the idea is pretty universal anyway.

Dunno about Halos being derived from Eygpt. It's possible , I guess. The Egyptian Church was pretty big back then.

Mary could be said to represent to triple Goddess. i see the parallel. What with her son dying and rising again. I guess Mary Magdaline could be said to be the Goddess in aspect too. Wasn't there a third Mary too?

There were tons of gospels floating around quite a bit before Constantine's time, the evidence points back to the 2nd century, but i'd think there would of been around in the late 1st Century too. collectively they are known as Gnostic gospels. Gnostism on the whole is pretty much distinct from the canonical gospels/other writtings I would say. Alot of people had there own ideas about who Jesus was back then, just like they do now. The Mary Magdaline stuff being Married to jesus is , as far as i can remember, a gnostic one.

I think the gospels portray Jesus as very mortal. Jesus was regarded as divine way before Constantine came on the scene.

I'm not that bothered that Much of Jesus's early life wasn't recorded. I'm sure he must of had one.

The are no gospels among the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Quamran sect was not affiliated with Christianity.

I dunno if there are grounds to suppose that there was something seriously wrong with Jesus for him not too marry. Perhaps that just wasn't his path.

Isn't that John in the Last Supper? My hair's longer than his


I'll haven't read Da Vinci code yet, nut I will do sometime

[Michael]

I haven't read the book and I don't have too much knowledge in these areas, but I just wanted to state that this thread is very interesting! I hope it continues because I'd like to learn more.

[Gwen]

I'd just like to say before i go any further, that i mean absolutely no offence in the questions i've raised & i love and appriciate your maturity (M@, Michael) in your answers. This isn't a firestarter thread, not like that stupid "God doesn't exist" thread, at least, thats not how its meant

M@,

There were tons of gospels floating around quite a bit before Constantine's time, the evidence points back to the 2nd century, but i'd think there would of been around in the late 1st Century too. collectively they are known as Gnostic gospels. Gnostism on the whole is pretty much distinct from the canonical gospels/other writtings I would say. Alot of people had there own ideas about who Jesus was back then, just like they do now. The Mary Magdaline stuff being Married to jesus is , as far as i can remember, a gnostic one.

This sounds interesting, i've never heard the word Gnostic before. i've tried googling it but it suggested i'd mis-spelled 'agnostic'
do you know any links where i could read up on this further?

I dunno if there are grounds to suppose that there was something seriously wrong with Jesus for him not too marry. Perhaps that just wasn't his path.

I wasn't suggesting there was something wrong with him, i'm suggesting, as a young jew in those days, it would be extremely unlikely he wouldn't have been married...apparently ?

Da Vinci (as the Dan Brown book notes in great detail) was notoriously pagan & even more so notorious for splattering his works with pagan symbology, to be honest, i'd never noticed it until i read TDC. But as well as (for arguements sake, Mary) & Jesus in the Last Supper note the colours of their robes, matching colours but in reverse. Ying & Yang, male & female. Also, note Peter speaking to her, just beneath him (near the table between the two bearded guys) you should be able to see a hand holding a knife... if you can't see it, google for a better version of the painting
This knifed hand doesn't belong to anyone but (according to brown) shows Peters jelousy towards Mary. *sigh*
I find this aspect (although interesting from the point of view of learning Da Vinci's thoughts on certain matters) seems a little crass i can hardly imagine Peter whining to Jesus "But you like her better than meee"

[Michael]

I wasn't sure what gnostic was either. I too was wondering if he meant agnostic. *shrugs* I AWAIT YOU ANSWER M@! ^_^ This is a very interesting thread. I ha dno clue that Da Vinci was pagan! *smilies* Learn something new every day!

[matthew]

I've found this really cool pic of the last supper. Let's you zoom in an everything.

milano.arounder.com/category/fullscreen/IT000005356.html

I'll have a look online for some stuff on Gnosticism. I could give you a basic idea what Gnosticism is, i have quite a lot of stuff about it in my bookshelf, plus a ton of gnostic gospels ;D

I wouldn't be surprised about the 'Pagan' (I really don't like using that term. Too abstract) symbolism in the Last Supper. I dare say it's quite possible, as Leonardo was into just about everything. And I find the knife really intriguing.

[Ellie]

I read The DaVinci Code a while back and it was probably one of the most fascinating books I have ever read. I don't really know what to think of all of the theories (so I'll spare you all my ramblings. lol). I kind of took much of it with a grain of salt, but it IS incredibly thought provoking. I'd totally recommend it to anyone.

[hischild]

www.gnosis.org/

[Cadfael]

Hi everyone.

It is historically true that as a Jew Jesus would have been expected to marry, and if he were it was something that was NOT worthy of note. In fact if he had not been married it is that in itself that would have been notable... it would have been mentioned in the writings of the time.

But, that proves nothing. He may have married, he may have remained a bachelor, we will never know, apart from the conviction of your own faith. The gospels that were taken up for inclusion in the bible were not writen during the time of the events... and it is possible the authors did not have the full story. I have to say it is also possible that the council responsible for compiling the Bible decided not to include any material that indicated Jesus was married, but again... we wil never know.

As regards the 'Last Supper'... it is possible that this is St John the Younger, who was always portraid as unbearded and effeminite looking. The knife? Try this...go and get a kitchen knife and hold it in your right fist with the top of the hilt near your thumb, then lean on a table with your left hand and place the hilt of your knife on your hip with the blade pointing away from you... and you will be in the very same pose that Peter is. The notion that this is an EXTRA disembodied hand is in fact a fallicy.

But okay... let us assume the figure sat by Jesus IS Mary, what does this prove? I have seen many documentaries about this and when this painting is rolled out many have become convinced.. it MUST be true! But, and this amazes me... it does not prove Mary was there, it only proves Da Vince himself believed she was there (assuming it IS a woman). Okay, Da Vinci may have been party to secret knowledge, or a current theory of the time. But Christ and his Disciples did not pose for that painting. The room, the food, the tablecloth, the features of every person are all the work of Da Vinci's imagination... how he saw the Last Supper in his minds eye.

Ms Plantard and his Priory of Sion are now proven to be a hoax. He formed the order in 1952 to foster the notion that he was the last surviving member of the Merovingian dynasty... and it was to this conclusion he subtly lead the authors of 'Holy Blood' Holy Grail'... he wanted them to 'discover' who he was. He was understandably horrified when the leapt to the utterly wrong conclusion... that he was last descendant of Christ.

The book 'Holy Blood, Holy Grail' was the major source material for the 'The Da Vinci Code'.

[savedbygrace]

deathvalleyroseh2o said:

I wasn't sure what gnostic was either. I too was wondering if he meant agnostic. *shrugs* I AWAIT YOU ANSWER M@! ^_^ This is a very interesting thread. I ha dno clue that Da Vinci was pagan! *smilies* Learn something new every day!

Yes you do.

[Gwen]

wow, i'd forgotten about this thread

But okay... let us assume the figure sat by Jesus IS Mary, what does this prove? I have seen many documentaries about this and when this painting is rolled out many have become convinced.. it MUST be true! But, and this amazes me... it does not prove Mary was there, it only proves Da Vince himself believed she was there (assuming it IS a woman). Okay, Da Vinci may have been party to secret knowledge, or a current theory of the time. But Christ and his Disciples did not pose for that painting. The room, the food, the tablecloth, the features of every person are all the work of Da Vinci's imagination... how he saw the Last Supper in his minds eye.

I think the thing that freaks people out about the painting is that it's been around for so long, etched on the wall of the Santa Maria delle Grazie & it's probably the first thing that springs to mind when you say 'the last supper' to most people.
To have these little quirks in the painting pointed out (the hand, 12 cups, etc) would seem like 'proof' to a layman that there was some deeper conspiricy to it all, but this wasn't painted at the time of the last supper and i completely agree w/ you Cadfael, all it could possibly prove is that DaVinci himself believed it...
I think we view 'conspiricy theory' to have been invented the day JFK was shot & it is pretty amazing to find out it existed back in DaVinci's time

I think Dan Brown was clever to mix just enough fact with wilder fiction to pass it all off a possible fact ...shrewd guy that Dan

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